Zeehaen - 1:37.5 - From Dutch Explorer Abel J. Tasman

When I upload my pictures, about 95% is correct. The rest are positioned as landscape but should be positioned as portrait. So when I "plaats reactie", some pics are crooked and when you look at them you have to crook your head 90° to right or left.
Please advise.
Thanks
Marcus

 

Hi Marcus,
Drastic, indeed.
First: do you have a symmetry problem? Maybe it's the picture, but it looks like one side is closer to the middle than the other.
Now your problem: you are making the hole for the helm much too big. Your planking ends way too early. You have to stretch the end of the planking as far as you can. Maybe things get clearer with a view on the unplanked stern of the fluit:



This 3D representation was made with the help of my great 'partner in crime', Rene Hendrickx.
As you can see the tops of the frame parts rise above the highest wale, so your planking should continue there as well. That will close the gap for a big part. Then you will end up with something like this:



I hope this helps.
Ab

Edited December 20, 2019 by Ab Hoving

 

The Rijksdienst voor Cultureel Erfgoed (Governmental Service for Cultural Inheritance) is almost finished with the preparations for bringing the 3D construction of Witsen's pinas online and there are plans to do the same with the fluit. There are still some barriers to overcome, but work, executed by a small firm called Tijdlab, is progressing fast and we hope to present the first online version in spring.
I started pushing the project of the 3D presentation of the pinas (which is the only Dutch seventeenth century vessel we have all the data of) in 2006, but actually the reconstruction of the ship after contemporary data goes back to 1980, when I laid my hands on Witsen's book for the first time. The plans can be found here: https://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/AbHoving.htm. The 3D work started in 2013, after the first initiatives stranded because of the financial crisis in 2008. I have good hope that we will be online early 2020.
So be patient.

Remember Marcus: many people ran into the same problems with - as you do here. It is a very tricky shape to make. Many gave up. To tell you the truth, I discarded a small fluit-like model myself a month ago. (Edit: I just discovered that I told this story earlier. Sorry for that. It's the age, you know ) I was trying my hand at a rather unknown type of ship, a 'wadconvooier', a small armed vessel to convoy merchants on the Zuiderzee between Amsterdam and the inlets between the islands up north the country. All I have as a source are some contemporary pictures, showing different vessels with the same function. On some pictures the type looks like a Statenjacht with an additional mizzen mast, on others it resounds the shape of a fluit. Nevertheless I (also) tried my hand at the fluit-like type and tried to get the widest point of the hull at the hight of the upper wale. I seriously failed because I used a design for another fluit, which was incorrect in this context. The model disappeared into the dustbin and I started anew.

This is the Statenjacht-like type of the wadconvooier.


To the left another 'watte convoyer' of unsure type. Probably fluit-like.

Here an obvious fluit-like type. Mind the widest point at the second wale, where the man in the boat points at, as if he wants to warn me....


And here my first try, with a shape I did not like. As you can see the widest point is way too low. So it ended in the dustbin.

And here the second try. The shape of the 'hips' comes closer to the one on the painting, but I'm still not completely convinced. This one might end up in the dustbin too...
All I want to say Marcus, is that there is nothing to be ashamed of if you remove parts of your model, or even if you start all over again. Because remember, a mistake made in the beginning of the building process is like a pregnancy: it will only get more and more visible.
Now you still have the chance to improve your build. Take it.
Ab
Edited December 21, 2019 by Ab Hoving

 

Ab,
I am never ashamed of redoing a model. With building the Utrecht, I got it right after the third try. I was continually having problems with the stern. Seems that is where I always have a problem with. Same with the Boyer.
I also appreciate your constructive criticism and you show this with pictures.

I think it is safe to say that you are the only modeler on MSW that has built several Fluits and I am in the process of building one. So I rely on you, Jan and a few other Dutch people to give me advice.
Marcus

 

That's the spirit Marcus, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.
Ab

 

A question to Ab
This plan is included in the book "Risse von schiffen des 16. und 17 jahrhunderts"
If I look at the plans of Golden Hind that are also included, they don't look really reliable.
Am I right?



Patrick

 

Patrick, do yourself a favor and throw that book into the dustbin. There is nothing in it that has any relationship with real Dutch ships. It was published way back in 1969 by a group of German people who had not the faintest idea what Dutch shipbuilding was all about. In those days it might have been worthwhile, but nowadays the best thing I can say about it is that it is hopelessly obsolete. And I am withholding myself.
Ab

 

Drastic re-do.
I have started removing the planking in between frame 5 and 10 on both sides and the side where the overall planking leans too much outward between frames 5,10,15, and 20. I may just go further to frame 25, 30 and 35.
Have to do this slowly as I don't want to rip it too fast as I may break something I don't want



I will probably cut the frames as well and install new ones. It would then be easier to plank.
I looked at all the pictures I have from Fluits and on some have there planking stop just above the stem and some show the planking a little further out of the end of the rudder.
Marcus



Ps. Twee foto's understeboven,
HELP

 

Hello Marcus,
I don't think this method will lead you to the desired result. The lines don't end in a sharp angle.
May I suggest a different approach?
Screw a firm batten to the back of the sternpost and attach a taffrail-shaped temporary mould to its front side. You can pick the shape from the draught. Then work with flexible battens of 4 x 4 mm following the sheer of the hull. Start them at least from the midship area and attach them to the taffrail mould. Make sure they follow a natural curve. If necessary help them a bit by shaping the battens. If all is set in a satisfactory way take the shape of your top timbers from the inside of the battens.
Maybe this clumsy sketch makes things a bit clearer.

Ab

 

Here is my batten screwed into the back of the sternpost with a temp. Taffrail-shaped mould.


My somewhat stiff but still flexible battens are 2mm by 2mm square dowels of basswood (it is what I have handy) which I will use.
Other material I am experimenting to use is 2-ply, 1.5mm thick maple veneer.
Marcus

 

I'm sure this will work Marcus. For battens, use what is available, but don't make them too thin. They have to support your moulds for the top timbers and are not supposed to give way.

You want to complete the missing parts of the top timbers and find their shapes. You can do that by making molds, for instance from card that you fit and adjust to the inside of the flexible battens until you have found the right shape of every missing part.
Ab

 

I did a dry run of the shape of the re-do area. I like to get a visual of it all before anything becomes permanent. It looks so much more like a Fluit.


This time the temporary planks end up in the middle of the ship compared to last time.


Next I will remove all the planks and and use the battens to follow the natural curve of the ship.
I created lots of molds from scrap wood and I have also made molds from card. They will be fitted and sanded to shape to fit the missing pieces.
Marcus

 

Excellent Marcus, you are on the right track now!
Next be aware that your real planks should curve upwards to the stern to get the sheer you want.
Always keep an eye on the lines....
Ab

Edited January 7 by Ab Hoving

 

After measuring and remeasuring, doing some more dry runs and staring at it, I laid out the frame pieces needed to built up the area.
Stared at it some more and dry fitted one more time, I glued the frame parts one by one with Tightbond III glue (over kill). Clamped the frames making sure they fitted exactly where they are supposed to be.



The planks are dry fitted so I know how the contours of the frames are and that it all fits.


I am satisfied with how it all looks. The hips of the ship are round. It is definitely different compared to what I did in the first place.



The frame pieces are straight and it glued up nicely. Some areas on the frames need to be lightly sanded.




Did the same process for the opposite side.


The metal pieces go through the planking and frame pieces. The 90 degree angle keeps the frame pieces from moving down into the hull.


Marcus

 

wow i know the feeling braiking tings down.

 

I have done that with every scratch built. There is always something to redo. Then I have to decide to trash the boat and start over or just redo the part that is mistake.
If I ever need to do a restauration project, then I got a lot of practice.
Marcus

 

Started planking the area.


I cut out a small area where the walnut plank will be installed and curved lightly upward and follow the shear.







Marcus

 

This jig measures the height and checks if both sides are level. Both sides have to be even.



Besides measuring the height of both sides, I also draw the waterline on the hull and with pushpins attach planks to the edge of the waterline.
From the plans I measure the distance from the waterline to the top of the railing. Then I transfer that figure to the ship.


Lets me know how much wood I need to remove or add.

When I am facing the ship with the taffrail/stern in front of me, on the left side from frame 50 to the taffrail the upper planking goes straight up.


Facing the taffrail/stern again, on the right side. From frame 50 to frame 20 the top planking is at an angle and from frame 20 to the taffrail the planking goes straight up.

Question: Do I need to do a drastic removal from the area on the right side from frame 50 to 20 and reinstall new frames, so when I plank that area the planks will go straight up?

I am tempted to do this as it is easy to execute and doesn't take up a lot of time.
On the pictures uploaded here, you can't really tell the angled planks to the straight up planks.
On several pictures in the Merchant book it looks that way, not angled but straight up.
Thanks for the suggestions in advance,
Marcus

 

Marcus,
Seems to me that at least you should try to get both sides equal. The truth is in the draught...
Ab

 

This morning I did the radical re-do without any problems.
Removed the necessary planks and frames.


Sanded everything and glued in the frames.


Glued in the planking and for extra strength, drilled hole through plank and frame and hammered in a toothpick.


Sand lightly on the outside, add some more frames to the area and make sure there are no more drastic re-do's.

Marcus